Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Hi there,

I´ve recently received, on this site, an invitation to a party held in a swinger´s club. The party is themed around a brief display of lingerie, presumably by models or similar, to be held fairly early in the evening. The invitiation states that men attending are to be dressed in normal attire while ALL women guests (please note the capital letters as they are directly quoted from the invitation) must come wearing lingerie; stockings are mentioned specifically.

Is it just me or does anybody else see this as blatanly sexist when lingerie pertains to both men and women? I fail to understand why it shouldn´t be a case of lingerie for all, or at least as optional?

I´ve been unable to gain an explanation for this policy from the sender of the invite. I feel that the swinging community should exemplify a climate of equality and that this goes against it and exploits women. If my partner can attend in his normal clothing why shouldn´t I be able to, just because I´m a woman?

I´m genuinely interested in people´s opinions and comments on this subject.

Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Tough call without getting the sender of the invite to explain the thought behind it. I know that when a party with a theme is being organised, quite often the organiser has a visualisation of what they want from a design and artistic perspective to create a certain ambience. There is always someone who turns up at a fancy dess without entering into the spirit of it which for some takes that sheen off the evening.
The other angle is those attending. Whilst I see that equality is as close to your heart as it is mine, there is a choice of whether to attend or not. Nobody is forcing anyone to attend. It is akin to bdsm parties and clubs with strict dress codes. What if you have a certain state of mind and prefer your brand of bdsm to be quite covert as opposed to wearing leather, pvc, rubber, chains etc? It doesn't make you any less of a bdsm practitioner but can get you refused entry to certain bdsm clubs. Surely this discriminates also? Parties for over 25's only...i know some over 25's who behave like 15 year olds and likewise some 21 year olds who have a very mature outlook on life so this seems ageist.
If we all have the freedom to do as we choose, then the organiser of the party is free to specify what attire people should wear. If heshe has to accomodate people who choose not to wear lingerie then surely their freedom is compromised?
I know of clubs with age policies, dress policies, gender policies and even one with a race policy! (Which incidentally is my big bug bear) There are women only nights in clubs!
Hope my input has been of some use because while i totally agree with your thoughts on this form of discrimination, I also accept others have a right to ask for what they want.
Great post and I look forward to seeing more from you in the forums
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Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

I think the thing here is that you aren't actually excluded. You have made the choice not to attend because you disagree with the dress code. It was an invitation and you are well within your rights not to accept it.
Many schools do not allow boys to wear earrings whereas they allow girls to do so. Some schools do not permit boys to have long hair but allow girls to. The boy cannot refuse to attend school for these reasons. Would you send your son to this school?
Would you attend a Vicars and Tarts party if it were not permissable for you to attend as a vicar and your partner to attend as a tart?
My partner and I have attended many "black tie" dinner nights where the females can choose any dress they wish to wear whereas I have been forced to wear my Mess Dress and civilian men have to wear a dinner jacket and bow tie.
As a humourous aside have you ever heard of a greedy guys party?
One thing my partner and I spotted was that quoted from the invite was the fact that "men attending are to be dressed in normal attire". If a man chose to wear a thong then this would be considered not 'the norm' thereby encroaching on his freedom and discriminating against men surely?
I personally dont see this as a sexism issue but more inkeeping with the various standards and codes displayed by many swinging clubs and swingers parties and perhaps society as a whole.

The club with the race policy does not actually display this in writing but the owner personally told friends of mine that people of a certain race would not be allowed in due to trouble experienced by the previous owners with a group of men of a certain origin. I wonder had the group of men been white would white men be banned unofficially? I doubt it.
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Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Its been an absolute pleasure thinking about this. In one way its very very close to my heart as I have very strong views about equality and discrimination, however i'm always conscious that my views are not everyone elses views and that everyone has the right to express their opinions and desires.
I think your original point has merit and yes, ideally there would be no such differentiation between the sexes in clubs and parties. What we are left with is our own choices and to have the freedom to make our own choices is something worth exercising.
I've enjoyed this post, its been thought provoking and has got me to ask questions of myself and my own perception.
Thank you
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Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

I think Donatellos comments have been very much on the mark here. If there is a genuine (as opposed to? What are you wittering on about George) desire to create a look for the evening, a desire to attract and have displaying a group of people who conform to that desired ambience - yep, you have the choice to attend or not.

Anything compulsory, or where there is no choice or alternative, that imposes such restrictions - well, that's a different kettle of fish.

Have idly mused on this for all of 32 seconds it does occur to me that intention and attitude is maybe as important as the actions themselves. WHY do they want this dress code? -wry smile- Well you don't get to find that out, if they can't be bothered to reply. Maybe that tells you enough about them...

Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

I agree entirely!

It irritates me when single men andor single women are admitted to evenings which are advertised as ´couples only´. There are other options available for those who want singles present.

In the same way, something which is advertised as a lingerie night needs to be lingerie for all, optional for all or for nobody at all! That way people really do have genuine, non-discriminatory choices.

I´d be interested to hear more about paying up to 200% more than women. What´s the context as I´m genuinely unaware of it? Seems incredible!

Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Now just ask yourself, would you actually like to see men wearing lingerie?
Easy question i know, i wouldn't like to either.

Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

I´m in total agreement with you on this one! Time people started to practise what they preach on the swinging scene! Very relevant post!

Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Interesting thread.

For me, one thing that puts me off fun4two is having to change into lingerie. I look like a sack of spuds in all that kind of stuff, and hubs isn't into me-in-lingerie at all, so actually having to do that, in order to fit in and adhere to the dress code would make both of us very uncomfortable!

Whilst I absolutely agree that in Utopia there would be no isms, we've not reached that state of grace yet, and with the benefit of freedom of choice, aligned to good old common or garden free markets, it's inevitable that entrepeneurs will look for, and find, niche markets. Caveat emptor meets take it or leave it......, not to mention ya pays yer money etc....

This thread also begs the question of the definition of 'swinging'. I suspect that over the past few years it has broadened beyond all recognition to take in - and perhaps semi-'legitimise' a number of aspects of sexual conduct that were previously non-mainstream.

The fourth estate, bless 'em (it??!!), has chosen to focus mainly on the slightly more bizarre aspects to feed to their adoring public, whilst many sites are full of singles looking for lurve (or a shag without having to buy drinks and dinner first!!!!!) rather than anything else. I guess this serves to underline the now rather nebulous nature of the term, and therefore to justify those who feel it's a good arena in which to advertise a wide range of services, such as those to which you were invited.

For me, for example, bdsm is not swinging, but a discipline in it's own right. Ditto fetishism, gang-bangs and bukkake......

Will look forward to future posts on this one!!

x

Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Awesome post from swinginesp. Intellectualism making two aesthetically attractive people even more attractive.

Swinging as I understand it is a form of recreational, social sex between consenting adults, most commonly consisting of malefemale couples meeting other malefemale couples for sex andor ongoing intimate friendships.

Swinging is referred to as the ‘Lifestyle’ or the 'scene' and can encompass a variety of acts and occasions. Many swingers would argue that a single person couldn’t be a swinger and refer back to the days when swinging first took off back in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s as ‘wife-swapping’. The argument therefore is that if a man has no partner he has no one to swap and so cannot be a swinger. There is however, a greater tolerance of single women, as female bi-sexuality is generally accepted in the swinging community whereas male bi-sexuality is not as acceptable. An alternative way of viewing this in the singleton’s defence is that a single person can be a swinger if their partner is aware of their actions. One of the pillars of swinging is honesty and so somebody who is keeping their sexual relations from their partner would be unwelcome by genuine swingers therefore one can assume safely that swinging without a partners knowledge is not swinging. Its cheating.

Swinging first and foremost is a social activity. It is not a clandestine or secretive pastime once you are within the swinging community and amongst fellow swingers. Most swingers choose to keep their private lives within a circle of swingers for fear of being judged unfairly by the public at large because of their attitude towards sex and relationships. In this predominantly Christian-valued Western society, monogamy is the watchword for relationships. Someone who believes that polygamy and free and open sexual relationships are more to their liking may often be treated with derision and disdain. The safe sex lobby can put swingers in a bad light claiming that promiscuity is responsible for the spread of sexually transmitted diseases (STIs). However it’s interesting to note that since 1986 there has been only one reported case of HIV infection in the swinging community. The religious lobby can claim swinging undermines the basic values of matrimony. All manner of accusations can be thrown at swingers and swinging through nothing more than ignorance and intolerance. Once ‘among friends’ in a swinging environment discretion from the public and honesty with swingers are paramount values. It is this uninhibited lifestyle that attracts people to swinging. An environment where a person may be naked or dressed in an outfit, which may publicly draw ridicule and deemed unsuitable, is desirable for people who want to be uninhibited and feel desired and attractive and those who want to enjoy multiple partners.

Lets also look at swinging from a psychological aspect. Consider Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs and we can see that swinging will actually give people the top of the pyramid with Belonging, Esteem and Self Actualisation so swinging can be an essential life enriching activity for some. Can anyone say that's wrong? Swingers are given confidence, respect of others, respect by others and lack of prejudice among other virtues. Now whilst there are other ways to achieve this state of nirvana, one could argue that successful swingers are at the top of Abraham Maslow's pyramid

The social traits of swinging are not too different from everyday life. Meeting people, beginning and holding a conversation in a social gathering is akin to any party. Swinging differs where the flirting is accepted as opposed to risqué or frowned upon. The flirting progresses more often than not into sexual contact. Friendships are forged and the suspicion of another’s motives is removed. There is no worry about someone merely being friendly to get closer to another persons partner with a view to have sex with them. That is what swinging is.

In this day and age of more people placing an emphasis on the pursuit of leisure and pleasure after working hard, surely swinging is a natural progression. It is to swingers what a good night out can be to a drinker or a good result can be to a sportsman. That pursuit of a feeling of euphoria and an environment of utopia is their goal and in these times should we not be adopting a live and let live attitude to all and trying to understand that even if swinging isn’t for us personally, it is what some people want. I don’t like rugby and can give many reasons why but I wouldn’t want to see it banned.
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Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Blimey!

Right......would only add to Don's post the element of patriarchal vs matriarchal society; coupled with our lovely medieval christian Arthurian legends of romance. In a matriarchal society no-one could care less who the father of a child is, therefore sex assumes much less significance. In our society, and indeed in many others, it matters because of inheritance etc. In fact, come to think of it, perhaps the recent decades in the west have actually paved the way for swinging by allowing women to be separately taxed and leave their property freely....

Ty for the kind comments re lingerie, but believe me, it simply doesn't work! Am happy clothed or nekkid, but stockings and sussies just were not made for these legs!!!

Re the cheating bit, have a look back at Dusky's thread and see my comments there. As you'll see, I'll have to beg to differ. In my view, if someone is in a relationship where they are going to have extra-marital relationships without the knowledge of a partner, there will be a large and varied number of reasons, and quite frankly it's probably better that they do so with someone like us, who is not going to encroach on their everyday life.....look fwd to the responses on THAT one!

What intrigues me greatly is whether this thread has answered the original question??? Do you now feel that the invitation you received was 'strokes for folks', or do you still feel that it was inappropriate?

x

Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Its a game for fat kids that aren't blessed with ball control, skill, grace and vision.......football is the beautiful game.
Rugby was invented at Rugby Public School when a rotund lad who was shite at football picked it up and ran off with it. But the first ever rugby tackle was made on him by a footballer.
Its a wee bit too "close proximity with another guy" for me
Got a feeling this thread is gonna go ballistic now and all the chubby blokes are gonna want to grapple me to the floor
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Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Thats good to hear. Keep on throwing the topics in. Everyone should take a leaf out of your book Haven and when faced with a situation that seems slightly cloudier than the first impression it should be floated amongst others to get as many opinions as possible.
The eclectic mix of people in the world of swinging offers a unique opportunity to hear opinions from outside our usual social network. Everyone's train of thought is different due to how our own personalities have formed throughout our lives and there are some avenues that for one reason or another we just wouldn't go down.
Quite often there are no rights or wrongs, just different angles.
For me personally this is one of the most enjoyable threads on the hub as it's made me question my own perspectives and to a certain degree it's enlightened me. In some ways it's reassured me that others think along the same lines and in others it's given me the opportunity to look inside the minds of other people who normally I would never get the chance to converse with.
It's been civilised, intelligent and fuckin' enjoyable!!
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Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Hear! Hear! (Sorry, rugby brigade jargon, isn´t it?!)

I´m off rugby today, too. Nothing to do with the fact that France have just hammered my homeland, Bonnie Scotland, at the beautiful game. Can´t say we make up for it with our track-record in football, either!

I´m also looking forward to more posts on emotive topics; Could I also repeat my request for some advice rearding what, specifically, to read as regards the work of Abraham Maslow?

Re: Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs

Many thanks, Donatello. I mentioned this to the other half of Haven last night who tells me that anyone who has studied for an MBA or similar, as he has, is likely to have come across Masolw.

I´m an arty-farty, interested in pholosophy and literature kind of gal and your potted version of Maslow´s theories grabbed me right away. Looks as though it might present useful discussion material for us so I´m off to order the book right now!

Thanks again for taking the trouble.

Re: ALL POSTS REGARDING "Sexist Policies in Swinging Clubs"

Phew, okay, I woke up feeling quite bright and brainy, and now after reading all these posts feel like I never went to school or woke up. Maybe I should just read them again or get my hubby to read them later and explain it all to me? After all, I'm just a woman, or to many on this and other sites "a sex object" to be displayed used and shown at said clubs (joking!).
The first post I found very interesting with a very valid point, thanks for that Haven. In a day and age of supposed "Equality" how does any club get away with stating that requirement? Even if we do have the option of not attending as Donatello says?
We have been to a few "swingers clubs" and have been disgusted with the attitude towards my other half who happens to be disabled. Another "ism"??? He takes it all on the chin but it infuriated me. One club was brand new, yet had NO disabled access or toilet facilities. As I said, another "ism"?? Able bodied (or Non Disabled) people could get to rooms upstairs, he couldn't. Everywhere these days is full of "isms".
Anyway, rant over lol, just wanted to say how much I enjoyed everyone's viewpoints, such a nice change to see people actually holding a friendly and frank discussion with no rudeness or bitchiness.
Thanks for that!!
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