Gibbons, Swans and Wolves

I think the key here is to look at fellow mammals, of which only a fraction mate for life. I'm really a biologist and not a social anthropologist, but I would hazard a guess and say that there are probably a number of good reasons why monogamy has become hard-wired in humans over the last few thousand years, not the least of which has been religious dogma. Having said that, I guess there have been many variations in attitude among cultures. I know for sure that before the Japanese opened themselves up to Western influence towards the end of the 19th century after 300 years of isolation, they had a much looser attitude towards male-female relationships, and in fact the present-day situation where couples wear wedding rings is historically a comparatively recent development. Christianity never really got a foothold here (unlike Korea and the Philippines), and so people never equated unmarried sex with "guilt" or "sin" :-)
One interesting feature of Japanese sexual culture is the way that hot spring baths have always been associated with random mating, and to a certain degree this still goes on today but only very discreetly. In fact there used to be a term "yu-no-ko", which meant a baby born as a result of random mating at a hot spring. I think generally there has been a much more open attitude in Japan about sex as something to be enjoyed freely as a gift of Nature, as exemplified in "shun-ga": those erotic woodblock prints that have recently been shown at the British Museum. I'm sure other bloggers can probably come up with other examples of cultures where monogamy, although the official norm, is somewhat "looser" than in UK. But in the final analysis it's probably worth pointing out that the very fact married people get tempted to stray is evidence that monogamy is not a natural situation for humans. If we were all besotted with our partners forever, life would be dull in the extreme :-) I have a theory that sexual dynamics operate on the basis of chaos and entropy, thus reflecting what goes on in the cosmos generally :-)

................................................................................................................................. Hear that ? .................................... ..................................................That's me with nothing to say. ..................

Can't quite decide whether that's derision or bafflement :-)

But as eloquent as ever Luv2.

mmm - Just quietly reflecting before I answer ...

I'm going to the gym now (are you there GDU?) so make it a good one eh?

You two have obviously achieved a level of understanding and mutual trust which is rare in my experience. As Curvy says, a couple really do need to be on the same page to stay together and happycontentedcomfortable in their relationship. I really do envy you.

OK, maybe not trust, but you have achieved an equilibrium in your relationship which most people don't. And the fact that you are honest and open in your debriefs seems to be a key part of that. Long may it last.

But FA, this is the nub of the question. Is this "shag anything that moves" approach the ground state of humanity, well, the male part at least? The urge, as in most of the animal kingdom, to ensure his line continues by mating with as many females as possible. Or were we originally like gibbons, swans and wolves and are now conditioned to seeking multiple sexual partners?

Shaggy the Shagger. Sounds about right.

FA, "Personally, I blame feminism" Now why does that surprise me :-). ?


FFS, it's the 21st century. Most of us live in a world where we are able to make choices. For me, it's less about science (there are many different theories on this from eminent scientists), but more about free will; trust; promises; strength of character; honesty and most of all, the behaviours we choose.

I've thought about this topic a lot, as it happens. My own belief is that some of us are indeed hardwired to be monogamous, but some are hard wired otherwise.

Do I dare say it's like being gay? Either you are or you aren't, whether you try to hide it or not, it's just part of who we are. I don't mean this in a positive or negative way; we simply are who we were born to be. Whether we act on it or not is not important.

I read somewhere that 60% of men and 40% of women have had affairs. I can't back this with hard science, but in any case, it seems to me pretty good evidence that monogamy is not for everyone.

I have friends who are horrified at the thought of cheating on their partner; I also know many who find the idea of only one partner equally distasteful. In my opinion, religion has kept the unfaithfulness hidden to any extent over the centuries, but never got rid of it, as it's a trait somemany cannot uphold.

No tolerance? Not sure what you mean in this context ...

But I wouldn't dare disagree with you ....

Well, if it comes to it, this lady ain't sittin' her ass on any bleachers.

Pleased to hear it. Your beautiful spankable bottom shouldn't be jeopardised in any way, shape or form, let alone be sat in anything as corrosive as a pool of bleach Luv2.

interesting reading as usual. First I will thank other contributors for using words like chaos and entropy, equilibrium etc - beautiful concepts (and no sarcasm intended on my part). Makes reading the blogs more enjoyable.

The purpose of discussions (for me) is to understand the other person's point of view. Expressing an opinion and having to defend it can help affirm beliefs and convictions, and if done honestly can undermine them. Why the long-winded start to my comment? I get the feeling some are holding back their views (which they have a right to), but it is to the loss of the wider "community". No one has all the answers. (google "Ananse and the Wisdom Pot" if you have the time).

Now to my not so humble opinion. I grew up in a place where Aesop is supposed to have spent his early years, and our folk tales have animals as the main characters, so the "animal" themes here resonate well. Those ancients did not study psychology and behavioural science but there were very astute observers of their natural environment. Their language was simpler and the best way of describing human characters and personality was to compare them to animals. So with regard to friendship there are snakes, dogs and cats. Regarding speed there is the hare and the tortoise, and we all know who won the famous race. Regarding sexual relationships there are cuckoos, pigeons, gibbons, swans, wolves, bonobos and may I add elephants, where the females form the family unit, keep the adult males out and make contact for mating.

History will tell you humans as a species are not hard-wired for monogamy. Sex outside of marriage has been going on for centuries. As someone posted before, it was mostly limited to powerful men and women, and clever women and men. The former were not too bothered about the consequences (eg henry le ouit), and the latter were smart enough not to get caught. Some cultures had male eunuchs to work in the king's "harem". Who knows what oral skills they must have learnt.

Forward to the modern era, and technology has unmasked what has been going on for centuries. Regarding why monogamy has held sway for so long - without contraception and "safe sex" there were some disadvantages to having multiple partners (i am not referring to polygamy here). I believe the religious gurus, kings, lawmakers etc (and now the scientists) have the interests of the general population at heart, and create their dogmas to "help" people behave in a certain way. I might be straying into the "social" sciences, of which I am no expert.

To summarize,
- among humans are different animals, and it is hard to figure out which one you are (at least for me it is)
- humans have a very "mouldable" psyche, and maybe it is possible to become a different animal from that which you were born as or reared as. Are we hard-wired at all for sexual behaviour and prefences apart from the sexes(software vs hardware issues)

Regarding dogma, be it religion, science, philosophy or whatever, I believe its influence will wane, and technology will become more relevant. I may live to see the day when Darwin is deemed to be inapplicable to humans.

Hope you enjoy reading the above. It is a "synthesis" of my thoughts on the subject and anyone is welcome to comment on it.

- The tortoise is too slow to run into his house when he is in danger, and so her carries it with him.

GDU, that's the motivation I need to get the flab off the abs. It's a date.

Moby, Thank you for widening my perspective on this and for the reminder that people had this pretty well worked out before behavioural science was invented.